Chinese roots in other languages
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nnt -
道可道, 非常道. 名可名, 非常名. 無, 名天地之始; 有, 名萬物之母.
In Hán Việt:
Đạo khả đạo, phi thường đạo. Danh khả danh, phi thường danh. Vô, danh thiên
địa chi thủy, hữu, danh vạn vật chi mẫu.
(There is a variant about punctuation...and meaning: 無名, 天地之始; 有名, 萬物之母
nameless, such was the universe in the beginnings; getting names is at the origin of all things)
đ = english d
ao = english ow in "now"
ư = japanese う ơng = pinyin eng
ương = japanese う + pinyin eng
kh = pinyin k
ph = pinyin f
th = pinyin t
d = english z
an = pinyin an
ưu = japanese う + pinyin u
â = pinyin e
ch = pinyin zh
âu = pinyin ou
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nnt -
shibo77:
Could you find a reconstruction of Tang's era pronunciation of the above text? I think it would be
even more interesting than the E-zhou pronunciation (from which all variants have much evolved?).
Another idea would be the reconstitution of Tang's era pronunciation of a "regular" Tang poem
(i.e. which follows Tang's rules) and compare it with the present day pronunciations.
shibo77 -
How do I do quotes?
Find a Tang reconstruction, I'll find it! But it will have to wait awhile, ~1week, 2weeks. Sorry!
WH Baxter and many other Sinologists think that Eastern Zhou was the ancestor to all/most of the
dialects in present day China. But there is another "faction" of linguists who supports 殷商
latter half of the Shang dynasty as the ancestor. Of course, there are alot more different views
to these two. I made a small attempt to reconstruct some, I only got a few words. I don't really
study Tang Chinese. I also corrected some mistakes.
*Mid-Tang reconstruction < *Early-Han reconstruction
之*tsyi<*te
- Shibo
nnt -
I've found an interesting link (Big5 code)about William H. Baxter:
http://www.geocities.com/sgoertzen/Chinese/mcb5.htm
Quote:
李白﹐俠客行
Li Bai (LiX Baek), "Travels of a Knight-errant"
趙客縵胡纓 吳鉤霜雪明 mjaeng
銀鞍照白馬 颯沓如流星 seng
十步殺一人 千里不留行 haeng
事了拂依去 深藏身與名 mjieng
閑過信陵飲 脫劍膝前橫 hwaeng
將炙啖朱亥 持觴勸侯嬴 yeng
三盃吐然諾 五嶽倒為輕 khjieng
眼花耳熱後 意氣素霓生 srjaeng
救趙揮金槌 邯鄲先震驚 kjaeng
千秋二壯士 烜赫大粱城 dzyeng
縱死俠骨香 不慚世上英 'jaeng
誰能書閤下 白首太玄經 keng
Li Bai's rhyme words:
明 [微庚開三] ming2 (minh) < mjaeng 'bright'
星 [心青開四] xing (tinh) < seng 'star'
行 [匣庚開二] xing2 (hành) < haeng 'travel, conduct'
名 [微清開四] ming2 (danh) < mjieng 'name, fame'
橫 [匣庚合二] heng2 (hoành) < hwaeng 'horizontal, across'
嬴 [以清開四] ying (doanh) < yeng 'full, surfeit' [name]
輕 [溪清開四] qing (khinh) < khjieng 'light, trivial'
生 [生庚開二] sheng (sinh) < srjaeng 'live, grow, produce'
驚 [見庚開三] jing (kinh) < kjaeng 'startle'
城 [禪清開三] cheng2 (thành) < dzyeng 'town'
英 [影庚合三] ying (anh) < 'jaeng 'glory, hero'
經 [見青開四] jing (kinh) < keng 'canon, classic'
(I've added Hán Việt trancriptions)
Another poem from the link with transcribed rhymes:
劉方平﹐春怨
紗窗日落漸黃昏 (A23) hun1 (hôn) < xwon
金屋無人見淚痕 (A24) hen2 (ngân) < hon
寂寞空庭春欲晚 (C20) wan3 (vãn) < mjonX (C20 rhymes with A22)
梨花滿地不開門 (A23) men2 (môn) < mwon
(I've added Hán Việt trancriptions)
Middle Chinese is particularly interesting for me to compare with nowadays languages/dialects
(just for fun, I'm no linguist).
The Zhou are nearly as distant to the Tang than the latter to ourselves, so it's also interesting
to see the evolution from that time...
39degN -
Quote:
是呀!
汉语学的研究家里外国人占很大的比例.败涂地很多大都市里的人中文都挺退
化的. 哇撒! 真酷! 您牛! 我干! ...
sure, your writing is a living proof.
joking. BTW, could you pls kindly to explain to our native fellow and foreign friends what does
the 干 mean here?
is that was just[A] character had two stroke differences with 牛, or[b] meaning外强中干 or
[C] an ajactive means dry, or [D] the verb with famous meaning?
if your answer is any of A,B,C, then pls slip next paragraph, i m also sorry for got you wrong,
otherwise, pls read my tip for you as below:
next time before you using it, pls make sure it's not a stone in front of you.
Quote:
Another very good source is 大漢和辭典 a Chinese-Japanese Dictionary by
橋本·万太郎MantarôHashimoto. It lists Chinese (Tang, Song) with Japanese 平仮名hiragana
showing the Chinese (Tang, Song) pronounciation, and then the Sino-Japanese (Japanese Kanji loan)
pronounciation. This dictionary has been very helpful to the reconstruction of Late Middle Chinese.
about the 大漢和辭典 as a source, i think it's not realiable either, since:
1/诸 桥 辙 次 , is that 橋本·万太郎? according to my sorce, the auther is him, is a
modern scholar, the ancient chinese pronounciation even a chinese couldnt find it, how come a
japenese can do?
2/assuming his work based on ancient japanese records in hiragana of chinese pronunciation, dont
you think hiragana's pronunciation had its own evolvement source? i mean their ancient
pronunciation couldnt been as same as today's.
enjoy your holidays, the same to all the others who living in china right now, i'll be back after
it. catch you all later!
DavidHan -
Quote:
Does Vietnamese have many homophones, because Chinese has too many homophones for me to
communicate effectively simply using Pīnyín. Would I be able to communicate effectively simply
using Hán Việt?
I think Vietnamese have many homophones, but less than Chinese. And you can using Hán Việt in
communication, but it's not simple, because if you use Hán Việt so much with a native people,
they won't understand you ( like me, hic hic hic, understand nothing)
nnt -
Quote:
I think Vietnamese have many homophones, but less than Chinese. And you can using Hán Việt in
communication
We should distinguish Hán Việt words and Hán Việt as Sino-Vietnamese (Chinese language with
Vietnamese pronunciation).
Vietnamese do not "speak" Hán Việt, but Vietnamese vocabulary is full of Hán Việt words.
"Vietnamese language" in Vietnamese is "tiếng Việt", in which Việt 越 itself is a Hán
Việt word.
Việt ngữ 越语 is also used as a synonym for "tiếng Việt" in Vietnamese, but it
sounds more pedantic in a Vietnamese context. In this case Việt ngữ is itself a Hán Việt
word...
DavidHan -
Well well, you're right, hihihi. I've learnt manythings from you. Very interesting. But what is
Sino-Vietnamese????
nnt -
Quote:
But what is Sino-Vietnamese????
It's Hán Việt (Chinese pronounced Vietnamese way). You can take any Chinese text, modern or
classic, and pronounce it Vietnamese way: it's Sino-Vietnamese.
A modern Chinese text in Hán Việt, especially those including conversations, would seem rather
odd even for Vietnamese ears.
shibo77 -
Quote:
sure, your writing is a living proof.
Arrrr!!!!
諸橋·徹次 MOROHASHI Tetsuji is another name. Same person. It is useful because it lists the
Japanese pronounciations of the loaned words. Right, it is not very reliable either. The
大漢和辞典 is a great achievement in lexicography that which only the Oxford English
Dictionary have surpassed. The information presented is considered very accurate. It lists the
Kanji, the older scripts and variations(大篆,小篆), the modern hiragana, the Sino-Japanese
pronounciation (漢音, 吳音,慣用音) the ancient hentaigana, the modern Mandarin
pronounciation, the pronounciation according to "反切fanqie" to show the Middle Chinese
pronounciations which he analysed from older sources (廣韻,辞海,中華大字典), the
"方韻square rhyme" to mark the Middle Chinese tones(平,上,去,入,轻is not marked). Of
course, Japanese phonology had its own evolution. But because Japanese is written with a
syllabary, historical Japanese phonology is very well understood. Compared to historical Chinese
phonology 简直就是小菜一碟. Japanese phonology can be basically summarised in one page.
Happy May 1st!
Workers of the world, unite!
- Shibo
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